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[Music]

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welcome to the hidden truth show in our

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deep dive into the a a movement it's

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called a a kills in this episode we've

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got an interview with dr. mark

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willenbring he's a professor at the

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University of Minnesota in psychiatry

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and he also served in the National

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Institute of Health in Bethesda Bethesda

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Maryland it was there that he learned

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about all kinds of new discoveries that

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have been found to help treat addiction

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as a result of federal funding to

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universities but he found that all of

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these methods were not making their way

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to addicts that instead agz were

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continuing to simply use the 12-step

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program he wants to bring these to light

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he wants to put the 12-step program out

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of business

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check out this excerpt from our episode

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hidden truth ay-ay-ay kills well first

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of all it's important to distinguish

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between 12-step treatment programs or

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12-step rehabs and 12-step community

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groups because they're completely

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different well let's start with the 12

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steps itself what are your thoughts

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about the 12 steps well a as an

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organization is simply an association of

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voluntary association that people choose

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to affiliate with and it works for them

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it's not a treatment it's a support

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group right and the so there are you

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know it's a minority of people with

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substance use disorders who fill a need

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for the people who do that's fine it

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seems to work fine and if my patients

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are affiliates that's fine most of my

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patients will say they go for the

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fellowship which means they go for the

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social contact not the they don't really

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do step work or work with a sponsor

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others really do the the other on the

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other hand 12-step treatment programs

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are professional

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programs they're licensed by the state

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and they charge a fee for their services

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the and they incorporate some principles

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of the a into their clinics but but

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they're not they're not a a yeah well

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I've read something that rehab clinics

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in the u.s. approximately seventy to

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eighty percent of them utilized the

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12-step program

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that's correct is it actually probably

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more like eighty to eighty-five but yeah

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that's right

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so most for most people that's all they

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have available so they might be in a

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rehab program that they're paying a lot

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of money for but that well they might

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yeah most people really don't I mean

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most treatment in the United States is

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publicly funded the vast majority of it

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so you're talking about like a County

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rehab clinic

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are that are you know with his insurance

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that works and so forth and they're

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nowhere near as expensive there's a lot

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of attention to the high-end as there is

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everything these days it's actually

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ironic because people who are rich and

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famous get the worst treatment which is

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not unusual but in it but it's

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particularly stark in this realm the you

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talking about some of these places for

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instance in Malibu

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yeah Malibu is it is a magnet Scottsdale

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Arizona and especially Delray Beach

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Florida Pine County Florida or Beach

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County Florida has got like 300 rehabs

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and what's your critique of these places

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where do you start well hi Henry has by

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and large are kind of crooked and they

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don't provide any their treatment is not

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superior in any way at all

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but the thing is that it doesn't really

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matter what you're doing rehab there's

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no evidence way to do rehab because

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rehab is an evidence-based never has

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been never will be addiction is a

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chronic illness you can't treat a

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chronic illness at four to six weeks so

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the the founders actually knew this the

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founders of the Minnesota model did this

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so originally rehab was meant to be a an

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entree into a she had a what he had a

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week of attention to the body yet

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treating withdrawal treating you know

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you know three hots and a cot medical

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workups whatever so people got

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comfortable got their head clear and

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then two weeks of education and

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alcoholism is a disease according to

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that model and an introduction to a so

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they go up to a meetings during that

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time and then the last week was a

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discharge planning now the thing is is

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that they didn't expect anything to

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really happen during rehab what they

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expected was that the work would begin

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when you got into a the work was a day

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and it could place over a long period of

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time the so-called spiritual

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transformation that they talked about

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would occur subtly and over a long

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period of time usually it was multiple

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relapses and recovery and recoveries

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until somebody really got caught it so

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the the idea but but over the time this

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idea changed and it changed into one

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where something magical was supposed to

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happen during rehab nothing magical

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happens in rehab rehab this rehab of the

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find rehab for me we have is a period of

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intensive low quality counseling and

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headend and education and an

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introduction ta that's what rehab is and

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it's getting you clean at least

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temporarily well yeah so what

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you mean it's the so here's the thing is

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that you can't learn recovery skills in

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rehab so let me get here's my analogy on

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your rehab is like going to a basketball

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camp while you're at the basketball camp

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you read about these rules and

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strategies of basketball

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you see videos of people playing

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basketball former and current basketball

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players come in and talk about playing

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basketball but while you're there you

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never set foot in the court and you

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never touch a ball and then they

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you know that makes no sense at all and

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it doesn't work nobody well I said I and

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I would imagine you would also even

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challenge are they even teaching you

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basketball correctly well they're not

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actually both most programs really don't

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even provide what's called 12-step

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facilitation so and 12-step programs

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will hide behind that so there was a

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study a few years back called the match

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study and they compared CBT cognitive

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behavior therapy motivational

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enhancement therapy and 12-step

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facilitation so they manualized the

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12-step treatment program but they did

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it that didn't do it in an inpatient

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they did it at an outpatient moderately

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intensive with high quality counselors

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so the helpers had amazed and phd's they

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were intensely monitored they were the

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recession's were recorded etc etc which

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all improves of the internal validity of

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the trial but it had nothing to do with

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the real world and and what they found

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was that they all work about the same

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now

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the and Marilyn Carroll not Marilyn

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Schairer Kathleen Carroll I'm sorry

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Kathleen Carroll did a try did a study

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of real-world 12-step treatment and and

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she did it through the national trials

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Network

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put together by NIDA which was allegedly

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going to spread evidence-based practices

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it hasn't done anything like that but at

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any rate it's the the the rehab chosen

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for that are actually quite there at the

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top tier they're the top twenty five

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percent or higher of the community

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programs to affiliate with the with the

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Research Center and even in those

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centers and even though people knew they

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were being monitored

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hardly any treatment at all took place

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it was mostly simply in general chat

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that's what ended up calling it chat so

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they come in and they talk about other

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cat died last night and you know how you

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know because the general talk about

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recovery and so forth but but very you

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know the interventions they did and

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pardon me we're actually pretty good but

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the iStent do very many and they didn't

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go it they didn't go any to any and he

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depth

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there's no was there is their individual

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counseling going on at those clinics yes

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a little bit there was mostly group but

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there was some individual and they they

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capture the individual sessions and are

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they going into childhood issues for

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instance are they going into what

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childhood issues no no no no basically

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they don't go into anything okay so

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that's we were talking about the

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Celebrity Rehab clinics you said that

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some of the ones that are publicly

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funded or better in what way are they a

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little bit better

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well they're you know they're some of

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the programs like in Minnesota some of

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the programs are halfway decent they

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still are 12-step based most of what

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they teach you is wrong scientifically

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wrong and and most of them are anti

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medication which is stupid if you

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enjoyed that excerpt go check out hidden

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truth show AAA kills wherever you listen

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to podcast the hidden truth show AAA

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kills wherever you listen to podcast

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[Music]